Senator McGuaran - Union hater, you decide...

The following text was taken from the transcript of the Senate Estimates Committee hearing held on 28 May 2008.

Senator McGAURAN—Also, I could not help hear laced through all your discussions that there is a real problem with sick leave. 

Mr Russell—The issue of absenteeism is something that we are addressing with a concerted program. Our air traffic group has unlimited sick leave as part of its certified agreement. We think that it is possible by just about every benchmark we see to improve the numbers of, for instance, days taken, particularly single days taken, in sick leave through that group, and we are working on a careful program to bring about some significant cultural change in that area.

Senator McGAURAN—This highlights—and you can confirm this or not—what a problem the great Aussie sickie is in the towers. You mentioned that they have unlimited sick leave. I think that is your problem.

Mr Russell—I was not responsible.

Senator NASH—Do you have the average utilisation of the unlimited sick leave? While it might be unlimited, do you have figures on what the average sick leave is?

Mr Russell—We are budgeting in our air traffic group for between 10 and 11 days a year sick leave. In some parts of that group that number is higher. It is part of the management challenge in that part of the organisation to bring that to more realistic levels.

Senator McGAURAN—What is your relationship with the union? You are going to have to get down and dirty with them and say, ‘We can’t have this rorting going on and unlimited sick leave.’ They are taking advantage of it. 

Senator McGAURAN—My two colleagues over here are former unionists. Let us just tell it as it is, call a spade a spade. There is nothing wrong with the entitlement of sick leave. But when it is being rorted, why don’t you call a spade a spade.

Senator McGAURAN—And snarling in the background. You will not face the facts. Genuine sick leave is fine, but let us face it, we have uncovered here the air traffic controllers taking to new heights—sky heights— the great Aussie sick leave entitlement. I think most Aussies would be amazed that they have unlimited sick leave. When was that negotiated with the union? They have done you over, Mr Russell.

Mr Russell—When I ask that question I can never get a definitive answer. It was long before my time. Let me just say that we recognise that this is an area of the organisation that requires careful management and that is what it is getting.

Senator McGAURAN—It is going to require more than careful management. This was once done during the Reagan years. Sooner or later you are going to have to confront this problem. This is the root of your problem.

Mr Russell—We do not see evidence of rorting, but we do think it can be better managed. That is what we have got in front of us.

Senator McGAURAN—Yes. Still on the Friday, 4 April, peak hour in Sydney with only half the air traffic controllers. You would think they would have had the decency not to call in sick on a Friday, but anyway. That was their call.

Senator McGAURAN—Of course it was short notice. It is a culture. I have absolutely no doubt about that from the feedback I get. It is placing traffic in danger in Sydney, without question. ... That is a contemptible attitude. I think there is a problem with your relationship. I agree with the chairman on this in that you really are up to it, but sooner or later you are going to have to get down and dirty and have a fight. You watch them; they will all walk out because they do not want to lose this lurk. But you are going to have to face it sooner or later. If the government has any backbone, they will support—

Senator McGAURAN—Is there a difference between absenteeism, which you mentioned before, and the sick leave? They are not one and the same in my view.

Mr Russell—Absenteeism covers long-term sick leave, those sorts of issues. Our program is about absenteeism generally, because we think we can improve in a number of these areas.

Senator McGAURAN—But absenteeism might be when they just do not turn up; not that they are sick, just that they do not turn up.

Mr Russell—That is part of the management challenge, to make sure that we improve the situation.

Senator McGAURAN—What are the reasons for high absenteeism as distinct from sick leave?

Ms Fleming—Generally absenteeism refers to short-term sick leave. It is generally used in that form, single day absences, et cetera, whereas sick leave can be longer term when people have illnesses, operations, that sort of thing. Generally people refer to absenteeism as short-term single day-type absences.

Senator McGAURAN—As to the days off, if you do not have to supply a medical certificate I bet most people take one day off.

Senator McGAURAN—...We have established that it is an unlimited entitlement. I would like the total number and the total according to each airport so that we can establish the days lost. This is a union problem as far as I can tell.

Senator McGAURAN—This is a union problem. It is part of the certified agreement.

Senator Conroy—Are they even affiliated to the ACTU?

Senator McGAURAN—Are they? Mr Russell, are they? It is irrelevant whether they are or are not.

Senator McGAURAN—It is not relevant, but the minister thought it was. Because if they were you can bet that the support for them would double. It would double if they were affiliated. Nevertheless, I believe this is a union problem. It just cannot go on. When you have half the air traffic controllers walk out on a Friday at Sydney Airport, that is a problem. One day you will not be able to fix that. It is way too serious for the passengers. The do not know half the time. I am not saying that they should. But as it has come to light, it is a problem in your court. You have told us you will address it. But I point out to you—and would you agree?— there is only one way to address this, and that is with the union. When is the next time the certified agreement is being negotiated?

Mr Russell—We are to commence or have commenced just recently the negotiations for the certified agreement with our air traffic controllers, which is due to expire in December this year. These are the sorts of issues that we will be discussing in that context.

Senator McGAURAN—On this issue what are you discussing?

Mr Russell—The general issue of absenteeism is one issue.

Senator McGAURAN—They will talk you under the table, Mr Russell. Do not worry about that. But what are you going to conclude with the union; that there will be a cap on sick leave?

Mr Russell—We are formulating—

Senator McGAURAN—Talking will not get you anywhere.

Mr Russell—We are formulating our views on a range of issues, some of which require some fixes that have been needed in this organisation for a long time. For instance, training and those sorts of commitments that we want to make, and—

Senator McGAURAN—We are heading towards the bad old days. It is very hard for you, Mr Russell—

CHAIR—Senator McGauran, you have asked Mr Russell a question. At least hear the answer, please.

Mr Russell—Our aim is to take our proposals to a board meeting that is coming up in the next couple of weeks and from there engage with the unions in some detail on some of these issues.

Senator McGAURAN—Is one of those details a cap on—

Mr Russell—Improving the issue of absenteeism is certainly one of the issues on the agenda, yes.

Senator McGAURAN—Given that it now has reached the crucial point, because you are in negotiations—

Mr Russell—We are not into the detail of the actual issues so far. There is a lot of preliminary work to be done.

Senator McGAURAN—Mr Russell, like your organisation and others, particularly with a Labor

government, you cannot do it on your own. You have to have government support on this. They have to back you. In our early days we had a seminal point not dissimilar to this on the waterfront. And without government support—certainly moral support—

Senator McGAURAN—Mr Russell, will you approach the minister for support in this matter? As I said, this is a seminal moment for your organisation, the air traffic controllers and the safety of the airspace. As I said, you cannot do it without government support, just as we had to support the reforms on the waterfront. This is not dissimilar. You cannot do it without government support. You must approach the minister for that support to take on the union. We were a Liberal government fighting a Labor movement. Now we have a Labor government, will they tackle a union of this strength? We know their strength and their capacity to walk out. That would shut down the airports.

Senator Conroy—And you did not deal with them. Why did you not deal with them? Why did you wait until you were out of government to decide to—

Senator McGAURAN—You would be interested to know that the level of strikes under the previous government was at record lows. We did not have that sort of trouble. The unions would not pull that sort of threat on. However, let us get the figures, to accommodate the minister, in regard to absenteeism over the last three years, if that is not too much. I really only need them over the last two or three. But I do not want to put you to too much work, just so we get a trend, anyway, and can see if it is a cultural—

Mr Russell—Perhaps I could answer the senator’s question: will I be in discussion with the minister about this issue? Yes, of course I will. I have already had a preliminary discussion with him and sought his views and we have a good working relationship with him. I expect that he will be closely informed as we go through this process.

CHAIR—You have been around long enough, as we all have. Without question the union will threaten strike action. Of course, we know that would be devastating. That would shut the airports. It would be back to the old days; it would bring business and travel to a halt. That is the weapon they have, and they will do it. I have no doubt. It is not a bluff; they will do it. Has the minister indicated to you or will you directly ask him whether, when it reaches that point, he will support you?

Mr Russell—I will keep him closely informed. I am of the view that, although these are difficult issues, we have a relationship with our unions where I am confident we can find ways through these issues.

Senator McGAURAN—You are dreaming. Unless you show a bit of muscle, Mr Russell—

Senator McGAURAN—Mr Russell, would you agree that there is a culture of absenteeism in the towers?

Mr Russell—I think there has been a need for better management in this organisation for some time. This is one aspect of it. We are hoping to bring that management to bear on a number of these issues. We are in the process of doing so. I mentioned earlier there is a wide-ranging program of reform in this organisation. We have kept our employees and the unions informed. That will not change going through this certified agreement negotiation.

Senator McGAURAN—Is it true that absentees have increased in the Melbourne centre - absenteeism, as distinct from sick leave—and it has conveniently coincided with the Airservices decision to change the night shift staffing procedures in low volume sectors controlled from Melbourne?

Mr Russell—Ms Fleming, would you take that or would you like to take it on notice?

Ms Fleming—I could take that on notice. I do not have the figures in front of me, but we can bring them back to you.

Senator McGAURAN—Is it true that those changes introduced in the low volume sectors controlled from Melbourne have not been welcomed by the union and, in fact, they have instructed their air traffic controllers to ignore them?

Mr Russell—There has been an ongoing issue with respect to this matter, which is still under some discussion with the union at the moment. It goes to the question of double manning overnight shifts on this particular part of airspace, and at the moment we still do not have a resolution of it. We are still in discussion.

Senator McGAURAN—Is it affecting the procedure?

Mr Russell—No, it is not. The matter is still under some discussion with the union.

Senator McGAURAN—Is it true that Airservices management is of a view that it is a violation of the existing certified agreement not to adhere to these procedures?

Mr Russell—We had a system in Brisbane that operated on a single man doggo, as we call it, and in Melbourne a double, and the two systems were operating. We sought to bring them into line and make what we considered to be more effective use of the staff involved in those overnight sectors, but the issue is still under consideration and discussion with the union.

Senator McGAURAN—Is it your view that this is a breach of the certified agreement?

Mr Russell—I do not believe so because there was one system operating in Brisbane and another in Melbourne, so no, I do not see it that way.

Senator McGAURAN—Because there is a certified agreement, you may not get the upfront publicity, public strikes, certainly not before the last election.

Senator McGAURAN—... we may not get the strike factor, but what we have got here is a strike under cover by absentees and sick leaves. This is what they are pulling on you. It is as obvious as the nose on the minister’s face. Of course he does not want to accept it, but the problem is there. It is strike under cover. They just walk out on you. Absentees lifted in Melbourne when they did not agree—and they have been instructed by the union—with the new changes to the night shift. It is so obvious. I have seen Mr Dudley jotting something down, so I am happy to hear from him.

Mr Russell—If I can say this, whether Mr Dudley is writing it down or not, I feel the same way, and that is that we see no evidence of some sort of concerted campaign here. What I have said to you earlier is that this area of the organisation, in terms of absenteeism and attendance, is an area that we frankly needed to improve and that is what we are working on.

Senator McGAURAN—Well, in a letter from yourself, I suspect to your clients, you concede there is a cultural problem.

Mr Russell— There is a cultural problem.

Senator McGAURAN—Of absenteeism and sick leave.

Mr Russell—But there is no concerted campaign. That is the point I am making. I am about changing the culture of the organisation. These are hard yards. This is an integral part of our reform process.

Senator McGAURAN—You see no link in the almost immediate increase in absenteeism in the Melbourne centre to the changing of the night shift procedures?

Mr Russell—No, I did not say that. I said that I can see no evidence of a concerted campaign and we will come back to you on the question of the absenteeism numbers post that change.